Working on a protection...

[002]

Since it's merely bloodgulch with nothing added (not even rebuilt), one could actually retrieve the data stored by replacing the tag array with the old one.

[Modzy]

Since it's merely bloodgulch with nothing added (not even rebuilt), one could actually retrieve the data stored by replacing the tag array with the old one.

That's not retrieving, that's replacing. :p

[Sparky]

Try retrieving the data Sparky, it won't be as easy as it sounds.

I'll give it a go once the rest of the tags are reverse engineered. This would be a situation where those hard-coded structs, as Dirk and I discussed, would benefit from their faster speed than multiple NSObject's. I would interpret my reverse engineered tag structures as structs for such a task as scanning an entire map file for pattern matches... of sorts. I could probably experiment with it a little in the mean time, like mess with some tag data and tweak the salvaging technique.

[Excend]

=|
Wish people would grow past protecting their maps.

I have to agree with this and add I don't really understand it, isn't the halo community small enough at this point that *if* someone were to rip and release a mod it would be known instantly? Granted I haven't been observing the halo population much at all but what I have gathered from the forum is that there are more people modding halo or making tools for it than are playing it regularly. I mean this is certainly a cool tool 002, and I can understand people wanting their intellectual property not being stolen, but is that really still a threat? At all?

[nil]

=|
Wish people would grow past protecting their maps.

I have to agree with this and add I don't really understand it, isn't the halo community small enough at this point that *if* someone were to rip and release a mod it would be known instantly? Granted I haven't been observing the halo population much at all but what I have gathered from the forum is that there are more people modding halo or making tools for it than are playing it regularly. I mean this is certainly a cool tool 002, and I can understand people wanting their intellectual property not being stolen, but is that really still a threat? At all?

To some people it's just a technical challenge like Waev said. Of course no protection is going to be un-reversable.. So yeah, I think it's not worth the effort.

Halo community is much more than it is outside of MGM. There is indeed more people playing the game than modding it. You just can't see this from the "outside"

[002]

=|
Wish people would grow past protecting their maps.

I have to agree with this and add I don't really understand it, isn't the halo community small enough at this point that *if* someone were to rip and release a mod it would be known instantly? Granted I haven't been observing the halo population much at all but what I have gathered from the forum is that there are more people modding halo or making tools for it than are playing it regularly. I mean this is certainly a cool tool 002, and I can understand people wanting their intellectual property not being stolen, but is that really still a threat? At all?

For one, this is only a proof of concept. It's true that no protection can be undone, no matter how good. Mine is certainly no different. With all protections, it's only a matter of time. I wasn't planning on actually releasing this, because I too am against map protections. If people don't want their shit stolen, then they shouldn't release it to the general public.

[Sparky]

You might use memory offsets and metadata patterns to recognize and fix a map when it has been messed with, but you won't be able to recognize the names of 100% unique tags, and tags with metadata that is modified from that which the program checks in its "rainbow table" (not talking about software piracy). That's why Zeus can use both the INCY and the tags and maps the user has on their computer in order to determine the tag names of these unique tags. That's the idea, anyway, haven't done it yet. But the reason why someone would want to protect a tag or map anyway is because it is something unique that they have invested some time or expertise into developing. But since these things still can be identified and maps can still be unprotected or salvaged from corrupted or rearranged data, then that's where the archiving comes into play -- you would only have to archive the map and password protect it in order to publish it, and then you could simply provide the password for using it to those who you screened when they asked you for the password.

But as has already been mentioned, these communities grow from what we do together, not from what we do separately. In the same way, all my efforts towards developing Zeus and the INCY and BDCN won't help the Halo communities unless we in the communities decide to use it. Same thing with 002's application here; it's meant to be shared, and so that's what 002 did with it. He could have just as easily said, "It's not meant to be shared," and then decided against it. But projects like these we don't do just for ourselves, but also for our fellow community members. And then we discuss it.

[���]

>>also OHP follows all memory offsets to achieve correct locations, just as Halo does. Adding pointer aliases for protection became obsolete when we stopped dealing in terms of magic and saw that the cache files were literally C-struct memory dumps.

I'm surprised that took much research. It always seemed kind of obvious to me. Reading this back in the day also helped a bit: http://nikon.bungie.org/misc/gdc2005_mnoguchi/

[Modzy]

>>also OHP follows all memory offsets to achieve correct locations, just as Halo does. Adding pointer aliases for protection became obsolete when we stopped dealing in terms of magic and saw that the cache files were literally C-struct memory dumps.

I'm surprised that took much research. It always seemed kind of obvious to me. Reading this back in the day also helped a bit: http://nikon.bungie.org/misc/gdc2005_mnoguchi/

I believe it was known but not really followed until later years.

[Sparky]

>>also OHP follows all memory offsets to achieve correct locations, just as Halo does. Adding pointer aliases for protection became obsolete when we stopped dealing in terms of magic and saw that the cache files were literally C-struct memory dumps.

I'm surprised that took much research. It always seemed kind of obvious to me. Reading this back in the day also helped a bit: http://nikon.bungie.org/misc/gdc2005_mnoguchi/

GREAT LINK!
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON!
I SHOULD REALLY GET IN TOUCH WITH BUNGIE...

Also, I get a sense that Microsoft is all about the concept of "chunks", and maybe this influenced Bungie when they were "Bungie Studios" when working under the auspices (at least on paper) of Microsoft Game Studios.

[WaeV]

Also, I get a sense that Microsoft is all about the concept of "chunks", and maybe this influenced Bungie when they were "Bungie Studios" when working under the auspices of Microsoft Game Studios.

Halo 1 was already under development for classic Mac before Microsoft paid them to release to Xbox first. Although I'm not sure how much the engine was changed by that decision.

[Sparky]

That seems like something I would ask the Bungie developer who wrote that article.
--
Someone asked me about the following.

Is it possible to protect maps so they can't be editted in any way?

When it comes time for your project files to be considered for protection, we can address that.

Okay, because there are some weapons and other things I don't want people to be able to rip.

And I don't want them to be able to edit the map.

I think the best thing to do in this situation is to simply and clearly specify in the release location something like this:

"This is a singular mod whose tags should not be taken for use in other mods. If you like this mod, or if you have suggestions for it, please let me know."

I'll include some sort of usage rights for each entry in the INCY.

- What do you folks think about this answer, and what would you additionally propose?

[WaeV]

And I don't want them to be able to edit the map.

I'm assuming this person means "I don't want them to be able to edit the map and rerelease it", because there's not much you can do to enforce preventing people from poking around your map if they have the right tools.

If that's what they meant, then a license at least conveys the original modder's intent.

Even so, it still comes across as odd that modders would want to prevent "their work" from being taken and modified without permission, when that's exactly what every modder does with the stock Halo content. It only seems fair to allow people to use your work, although I can empathize with wanting attribution.

The best argument I can think of for map protection is preventing the dozens of CMT Halo 3 ripoff mods, but in the general case it just seems silly to me.

[Sparky]

Proposed license details:

http://www.blamdevcom.net/projects/inde ... &task_id=5

[WaeV]

What does INCY mean?